The purpose of the UK Recruiter discussion board
is to give recruiters the opportunity to discuss issues relating to their jobs
and the recruitment industry in the UK.
Whilst providers of goods and services to the
industry are welcome to partake in the discussions they should not use this
forum for advertising.
Please read and adhere to the board's guidelines which you will see when you click to "start new topic"
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | Paul |
| Date: | Tuesday, 19th Feb 2008 17:30 |
| Views: | 376 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
For PSL cracking you live and die by the strength of the requirement and the strength of your candidate. I have never seen the real advantage of being on a PSL. essentially means HR trying to control a process they bring little value to. If the PSL though allows me to deal directly with the hiring part of the business then I proceed.
Essentially though you need a really good candidate, by that I mean what the client thinks is a really good candidate, not you. If you have that HR will invariably fold, but you must get buy in from the business, othewise you are going to do a lot of work for no reason.
The only other worth point is once offered decline to go on the PSL, and copy the business in on why you are declining. There is no greater feeling. Did it twice last year, still smiling now at the snotty and incredulous email I got from the Director of HR. What you offer is a commodity, don't undervalue it or sell it cheap! |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | Arnold |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th Feb 2008 13:51 |
| Views: | 357 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Message for In house recruiter:
Yawn... I expect your yet another HR tool... When your a kid, people say "if you cant do anything else, join the army". Well I say, that "if you are no good at Recruitment, go into HR/Internal recruitment".
Getting around a PSL - Tips:
always, always try and speak to Line Managers.
Sell a ghost candidate - send fake CV's to hook the key contacts in.
Go and meet all the line managers who are the key instigators of recruitment processes - (Ignore HR) - It will get you somewhere eventually
Use empathy - "I wouldnt want the candidate to lose out, just because I have sent the CV - its not fair on the candidate".
This very often lets you get a foot in the door, then you can do what you are best at - Business develop...
|
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | Paul |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th Feb 2008 14:03 |
| Views: | 343 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Oh no I can't go on your PSL..........I shall cease trading immediately.
You mention my company name like thats a secret, if you read the site you may have noticed I don't post anonymously.
Care to follow suit? |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | In House Recruiter |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th Feb 2008 14:14 |
| Views: | 339 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Wow Arnold - you pretty much define what is wrong with recruitment agencies.
"send fake CVs" - it is that kind of practice that gives your whole profession a bad name.
"key instigators of recruitment" - you clearly don't have any major corporate clients. No recruitment happens without our sign off, we monitor head count and dictate recruitment policy.
Your idea of going straight to line managers is a nice one but you show complete ignorance of what HR do, how do you think people get issued their contracts? uploaded into the companies systems? recieve their pay? getting involved in training and performance management? This can't happen without HRs involvement! You might get your candidates interviewed but when it comes to them actually being onboarded into a company you need HR onside. Instead you take a confrontational stance which will only annoy the HR department and get your cowboy recruitment company blackballed.
You also seem to have this notion that line managers enjoy speaking to the likes of you, completely ignoring the fact they have a day job. This is something a lot of agencies are guilty of, and it is HR who invaribly get requests from line management to ask you to back off.
Rant over |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | arnold |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th Feb 2008 14:37 |
| Views: | 335 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
2 points:
a) paul - well said... although, if you have to cease trading, remember what I said in my first thread... If you fail at recruitment, you can ALWAYS go into HR / Intenal recruitment - If things get too bad, you may have to scrape the very bottom of the Barrell and go In House / HR.
b) IN house Recuiter - You have a point - HR should do all the things you mentioned - that is , issue contracts, sort out pay, be involved in training - I am all for HR doing all of this.
What I think HR need to do, is remove themselves from the recruitment process, or have a limited, less "process orientated involvement".
secondly, you mention "cow Boy recruitment company" - this is what is trained into all recruiters on day 1... All the big companies on your PSL I can 100% confirm, do this, and instill it in their recruiters - obviously, I am wearing a cloak of anonyimity not giving my full identity - Why??? because I agree, it is a bit Cow Boy, but with HR people like you, one cant stick to the rules and make money. You made us.
2ndly, I dont care if Line Managers like me or not, "like" is a fickle term - People want the "right people for their businesses" therefore whether they "like" or dislike me is irrelivant - Its business - I dont "like" paying my bills, but I have to pay my Bills, and keep the people I pay bills to happy, why?? because its business.
I am not at all confrontational with you though I just know I am 100% correct and you are 100% wrong...
End. |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | HR ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th Feb 2008 15:31 |
| Views: | 378 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
HR are a nuisance in the recruitment process they don't understand half the roles and most seem to have a bad attitude. Most line managers would happily get rid of HR out the process. Most of my clients in my sector and a lot of the big corporates employ HR as paper sifters.PSL's are not worth the paper that they are written on i agree with Paul.
As you can tell i am not a fan of HR don't understand much of anything apart from who is off sick that day |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | Gary Twigger |
| Date: | Monday, 25th Feb 2008 12:47 |
| Views: | 352 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Apart the classic clash with HR and Recruiters (As seen above).
The best way to get around the PSL list is to talk to one of the Directors or Senior managers that can overrule HR.
That has been the only way that works for me - I never talk to HR unless I have been working with the company for awhile + I have already placed with the company,
I have even had some dappy cow from HR tell me that I cant work on a vacancy because of the PSL - Even though I placed somone 2 weeks before.
HR should stick with Sacking people and leave recruitment to recruiters. |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | allycat |
| Date: | Monday, 25th Feb 2008 15:28 |
| Views: | 335 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Gary: "I have even had some dappy cow from HR tell me that I cant work on a vacancy because of the PSL - Even though I placed somone 2 weeks before. " - love it!!!
We have been told in the past not to send CV's as they have a PSL. We abide by this UNLESS we have a cracking candidate that we genuinely feel is ideal for their business or matches a vacancy seen or heard about.
We also diarise to contact them regularly, especially around the time the PSL is up for renew.
But mainly, we leave them be & move on to the other squillion clients available in our industry sector that do not have nor have no need for a PSL.
If I were an internal recruitment person I would be advising my company/HR against a PSL, unless it were for a role where we were inundated with relevant CV's, often duplicated, but by putting in to process a system where external recruiters confirm post discussed with candidate etc etc. this shouldn't happen anyway. And of course if external rec's consistently sent through candidates wrong for our business I would black list them. |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | james |
| Date: | Tuesday, 26th Feb 2008 00:51 |
| Views: | 375 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Firstly, I need to post anonymously, not through choice but simply I wish to express my own personal views and don’t necessarily feel they need to be associated with the company I work for. I’m sorry if anyone feels I’m less credible for it…
HR - despite what you think, they will be involved at some point so get them onside asap, it might take a while but you can do it, just understand they like the softer approach, maybe your doing a salary and benefits survey and wish to bring some croissants down one morning and have a breakfast meet for 20 mins to discuss what they offer their staff to include in the survey etc.... of maybe call and say your in the area and realize their importance and wish to establish a dialogue with them and wondered of you could pop in. Bear in mind they tend not to like being sold to and also like to feel that you value their importance in the recruitment process. You could even distinguish yourself from other agencies by saying you don’t want to approach line managers without first speaking to them due to their importance in controlling the recruitment processes etc…
Best bet is to sell in a great candidate with industry and systems experience and know your industry to be able to really sell the candidates value. You need to do this to line managers really though, but, they tend to be receptive if you really know what your talking about. If this fails, go to HR as above, cap in hand…
ARNOLD - Not all recruiters are trained to be cowboys. You must have limited knowledge of your competitors to believe that as I am fully aware of at least 3 or 4 national agencies which specialise, and they train consultants properly with realistic targets and ensure they have a good understanding of the market they operate in. I am sure 100's more regional and local agencies do the same. Everyone has to start somewhere, but, if you recruit from the sector you recruit within or recruit people who will throw themselves into understanding their sector you will find it is possible to take on people who have some credibility. I also believe clients and candidates know that consultants have to start somewhere and providing the consultant demonstrates common sense and humility the lack of knowledge can be overcome.
The question about overcoming the PSL objection is a tricky one. By this I mean, you can use methods and techniques to bypass it once but put your chances of doing future business with client at risk. You can, as I would do, play a longer game and break down the barriers through perseverance and taking a gentle approach. I appreciate you have sales targets but you can’t hope to met them short term by getting passed a PSL with a couple of clients. Good luck.
|
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | Arnold |
| Date: | Tuesday, 26th Feb 2008 09:17 |
| Views: | 346 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
James,
You make some really good points, and to be fair, all of what you said is absolutely correct.
With regards to cowboy(ish) antics, or being a bit of a shark, perhaps I need to define what I meant a little bit further.
Yes, quite rightly, everybody starts some where, the market is both a training and breeding ground for new and developing consultants. To be fair, most national recruiters initially train their consultants to what I would call a DEFAULT SETTING if you like - as an example, when one learns to drive, one learns how to drive 100% safely, within the guidelines of legislation, motoring etiquette and most of all common sense - Once passed, people rarely obey to the letter what they learned in Driving lessons - E.g - I dont Drive at 10 to 2 (but I should really).
This default setting in recruitment is, in fairness to both the bigger machines, and the smaller and medium companies is how most start their training - Alas, Recruitment is about Money. If you bill money, and lots of it, you will have a fruitful career - It is, in effect sales.
Rapport I suppose is the key factor, followed by a firm understanding of all aspects of ones market and then, following a few simple and standard processes, one will do business. this alone, will bill you 10k a month, which is amicable (unless you have a firm prsenence built up over a long period of time also).
For those of us inbetween, this is where the "cowboy"(ish) activities come into play. to the outsider, one maay say that what we do is cowboyish, but I think all recruiters will agree, what the outsiders consider as coyboyish, is, in all reality, being competitive and strategic.
So I do think that James, you are spot on, and my previous comment was not fair to expose new people to the sector to the harsh realities of the market, but to bill above 10k a month, the rules, and the DEFAULT way of doing things do not always work.
Arnie |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | HR V Recruitment |
| Date: | Tuesday, 26th Feb 2008 17:26 |
| Views: | 615 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
James,
I own a small consultancy that is based on "quality" not quantity. All contact with clients and HR is freindly but professional. I agree with marketing clients but a lot of HR like to use the "no" word as a power trip. If i found out my consultants was sending crap to employers they would be out of a job so when a candidate is sent to a client they are relevant to that company and fully referenced.
HR do take it upon them to get to involved when they don't undersatnd the role. I had a member of HR state that my candidate did not have the correct experience for that company and he had worked there 4 years previous where as a line manager would say thats the guy for us.
I seem anti HR i am not i am just of the thought that they should not hinder the process they are employed to help.
|
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Thursday, 28th Feb 2008 08:49 |
| Views: | 370 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Sometimes I read stuff here that confirms my view that contingency agencies will soon be gone the way of the dinosaurs. So many of them just refuse to evolve to a changing market.
The best way to get round a PSL is to use relationship-based marketing such as referrals and networking to establish contacts inside the business and to make friends with someone in HR and to keep pitching to be put on the PSL. Then it won't have to be got round. Getting on PSL's is easier than continually getting round them.
The other important thing is to make sure your quality of candidates is good. This is where most agencies get it spectacularly wrong. |
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | phil |
| Date: | Thursday, 28th Feb 2008 10:43 |
| Views: | 345 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Mitch,
You really are a bit slow...
Guys, Mitch has read the book on "recruitment theory" and has probably wrote a forward to the book... He most likely sits there on a couple of well exploited accounts and fair play to him for doing so, but he really needs to wake up...
Yes, Mitch, we have all read the book too, and we all know how to do things the text book way, but your advice does not really help the majority... My nose is as brown as the rest of you guys out there, but just be careful with Mitch and his advice... it is too idealistic.
Idealism and reality dont often go hand... Mitch is absolutely right on a couple of points, in fact, if he and I were sat infront of a client selling our business services, I would say EXACTLY the same as Mitch... the thing is, I'd sound much more credible - Mitch obviously doesnt want people like me in the market because its the likes of me, that push him off the PSL's!!!
Sorry Mitch...
|
|
| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: PSL's |
| Author: | james |
| Date: | Thursday, 28th Feb 2008 12:44 |
| Views: | 453 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=64988 |
|
Mitch - I have to agree about the quality of candidates, i winch sometimes when I’m working on a role and a client tells me what cv's they have had already from other agencies and i wonder to myself, why on earth would you put that candidate forward to that role.
I don't however think that contingency will go the way of the dinosaur. Personally I think the last few years have provided a buoyant market place with a lot of business around which has created huge demand for consultants and also given less capable people chance to set up on their own. I think the result is more and more agencies throwing the proverbial at the wall hoping something will stick. Hopefully, if the market tightens over the coming couple of years it will only the better consultants in the market place. Idealistic i know, but only the capable will see out a tough market in my opinion.
|
|
| Reply To This Thread |
Please note: The reply form is not showing because the posting is older than six months or the thread is locked. Please start a new topic or contact the forum administrator.
|
| -->
|
|
