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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Monday, 5th Nov 2007 12:57 |
| Views: | 298 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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Hi Peter,
I believe we offer the best value combined invoice funding and back office services in the industry.
Indeed just this week a customer who left us thinking that the grass was greener with a factor and separate payroll system is coming back to us because the service was not so good and cost more in reality. I am sure he would be pleased to speak to you off the record.
Please let me have your postal address anyway
and I'll be pleased to send a full pack of information to you.
See www.cashsimply.com or call me on 07973 601 261 if you wish.
Tom.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | peter |
| Date: | Monday, 5th Nov 2007 16:04 |
| Views: | 306 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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right the one I am trying to get away from is touting for my business, I will not list the bulk of the reasons why, but 5/6 percent of invoice value is a hell of a lot of money. As for the client who left you, maybe he did not go to the right place for a good factoring/payroll solution. It does not give your system any merit, maybe just gives merit to your clients incompetence.
As to TIm Watson, if you cannot provide a normal email address, then I would not want to work with you.
Any others? |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Monday, 5th Nov 2007 19:12 |
| Views: | 299 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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Hi Peter,
I note that your posting is anonymous but I thank you for your question.
If you really are a Customer as your posting implies, you will know that the payroll and invoicing is done back to back. This means that unlike separated events a client is always invoiced when a temp is paid and vica versa; the process can't go out of sync and consequently correct finance is instantly available. Back to back processing is of course fundemental good practice in the fast moving Temp business. It also means, gross margin calculations can be done instantly so you know how your business is doing. Of course if you really are a Customer you will see this in the reports you receive by e mail each week together with lots more relvent management information. In addition you never have to worry about debt protection notification times etc.
Interms of rigidity, of course time tide and BACS wait for no man, so payroll entries just have to be on time and completed on Wednesday if Temps are to have money in their bank accounts by Friday. I could go on here but I won't.
If you really are a Customer, you will have recently received a Customer Satisfaction Survey for your comments. I hope you used that opportunity to provide useful feed back. We shall be feeding the consolidated results back to our Customers as soon as the analysis is completed and I am delighted to tell you in the interim that they are looking terrific.
I mentioned earlier that a customer had just come back to us this very week having tried the separated route and found he was both losing control of his business and not seeing the cost savings he expected.
If you would care to e mail me with your details I'll be pleased to put the two of you in touch so you can hear about both options from someone who has "been there - done that". Tom. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Richard |
| Date: | Monday, 5th Nov 2007 20:55 |
| Views: | 312 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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I think any instance of back to back is pointless. Look at it this way - Mr Atkinson will draw his funds from somewhere, most likely a bank and most likely the factoring arm of a bank.
He will get his money lent to him at a slightly discounted rate than what you or I could do by going to the factor direct.
This sounds great BUT, the downside of this is that if one or two of Mr Atkinsons large customers should topple over for whatever reason, his bank/factoring company reserve the right to pull the plug/call their surety etc which will have a MASSIVE impact on your business and countless others.
I'm sure Mr Atkinson, as a veteran of the factoring/payroll funding industry has many checks in place to prevent this and perhaps seperate insurance and security in the unlikely event this would happen. All the same in an uncertain business world, there is still a chance this could happen, however small.
An additional downside to using a 'back to back' is that your bank never really gets to see the true turnover of your business because you only get paid the margin from your efforts. This could have implications if you want to borrow a cool million from your bank. Sure you turnover six million a year say, but the bank is only seeing 1 million because you use a service like cash simply who only pays you your margin. Gross tunover on any business is extremely important when considering funding/investment.
The benefit of using a factoring company is that your bank and investors see a clearer picture as you get upto 80/90% of the total invoice value (including any VAT levied) and additionally in rare seasonal circumstances, organisations like RBS will advance you up to 120%, people like Venture Finance will even build in a temporary overdraft facility as part of their service.
Reality is this - back to back is great if you have upto 20 temps say and are lazy. If you want to maintain full control of the finances of your organisation, a day shopping round payroll providers and factoring companies, you will quickly see that you can build a package that is the same or cheaper than a back to back like Oracle, Cash Simple et al. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson. |
| Date: | Wednesday, 7th Nov 2007 08:56 |
| Views: | 310 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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Hi Peter,
Richard's post shows just how much finance people can misunderstand business needs in recruitment.
Indeed, misunderstanding of this kind is why I resigned from the a board of a major bank's commercial finance arm to start Cash Simply. (Oh by the way they got their funding from the parent retail bank.)
Just so everyone is clear: what I was NOT referring to was back to back financing of the type perhaps now best understood by the events at Northern Rock, although Richard probably alludes to a Cattles type arrangement, which I hasten to add, I consider perfectly sound.
What I WAS referring to is back to back payroll and invoice generation, which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SOURCES OF FINANCE and everything to do with good back office administration.
I hope that this helps to clear some of the muddied water. Tom.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Richard |
| Date: | Friday, 9th Nov 2007 15:04 |
| Views: | 316 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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Tom
So can you clarify exactly what product you are promoting?
My understanding is that you are explaining the benefits of the products that cash simply offers and my belief is that this involves the payment of temporary staff.
From a contact with RBS, I understand that they are whom you do or have as one of your funding souces and that it is via a back to back facility or am I wrong?
I am sure you can accept, this is valid question that a prospective customer should ask so as to know the standing of any new business partner.
Regards |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson. |
| Date: | Friday, 9th Nov 2007 17:26 |
| Views: | 327 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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Hi Richard,
Thank you for the opportunity to explain.
Funding issues aside (but just for your information - it is no secret that we get the bulk of our funding from the French credit insurance giant Coface - just as several factoring companies do) the generic product I am promoting (and advocate whether it is ours or any other in the fast moving Temp business) is one that provides as a minimum the back to back generation of payroll and invoicing.
Any platform that allows the separate production of either, both runs the risk of them getting out of sync so that Temps are paid but Clients fail to be invoiced or vice versa.
In the first case, the agency runs of out cash because they can't draw down cash on invoices not produced in time and in addition, Clients don't pay invoices they haven't received, so cash flow gets a double sqeeze. In the second case Temps leave and the business gets in trouble.
A further advantage of integrating these two operations in one system is that gross margin (at every level - if the systems are as good as ours) and other related management reporting (Holiday Pay accruals etc) can be available for instant management information, thereby facilitating the best management action to maximise profitability.
I hope that this adequately answers your query in the forum.
As some of the resultant features, like Top 10 reporting, instant calculation of sales cost and cash in bank so that SMS reporting can go to regional managers and owners away from their offices are somehwat esoteric benefits of a good reporting engine sitting behind a back to back payroll and invoice generation system, I would be pleased to discuss them off forum.
We are currently working on a best in industry web based management reporting engine for our Customers initially and probably for release late next year to others, which should provide benchmarking in addition to the manageement reporting. There is nothing remotely like it available, despite the excellent work done by R.I.B. Ltd for which I have considerable admiration.
Just email me if you would like more detail. Tom. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | just got back |
| Date: | Thursday, 22nd Nov 2007 09:30 |
| Views: | 281 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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just got back from holiday...
Oh my god, I think it is rubbish. Any good payroll provider works well with your factoring company. Any self respecting factoring company with credentials will supply the funds in 24 hours.
That is why, timesheets in by Monday 9am, your payroll knows how much to ask for from the factoring company, as set by your own parameters, cash will be in your account Tuesday, therefore Wednesday payroll.
As far as I understand, Cash simply merely uses their factoring company to supply the funds within a set time limit, so all the so-called "out of sync risks" Tom is referring, he is exposed too(if you believe him) so why is he "Selling" that when he is doing it himself?
However, he will charge you 5/6 percent turnover, as if you would go for a combination of a good payroll provider and seperate factoring company, you would be paying 2.5 max of turnover. Depending on volume you can do 1.5 orso. If you have enough cash in your bank account, well only payroll costs which should be about 0.5-1 percent.
This means though that
1. You are able to pay your temps through your own bankaccount, and as such your temps will see your company name on the bankstatement rather than KEen Thinking Limited (I believe cashsimply to be a trading name off)
2.Your payroll provider WILL collect timesheets for yourself, so you do not have to do anything. The problem with cahssimply is that they do not collect timesheets, the merely process the data YOU give THEM. You still collect time sheets. As such they are not more than a glorified data inputer for an expensive price.
3. Cashsimply will not allow you then take less funding as to save you borrowing costs. Because that would be complicated.
4.I am so annoyed that TOm promoted his 100 percent funding..... Which is not true. Because it is 100 percent net of vat, whereas as factoring company will supply let's say 90 percent of the invoice+vat. In other word's comparing like for like, cashsimply funds you for 85 percent. As they keep the VAT for their cashflow not yours.
5. I wonder what happens to your VAT when you trade over credit limit or something "goes out of sync" will you still get it when your HMRC VAT return is due or will they keep it as part payment of debt.
6. If you have 1-2 occassional temps, go for cashsimply, however any more than that do your sums and see what you can save! |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Factoring Solutions |
| Date: | Friday, 23rd Nov 2007 12:48 |
| Views: | 299 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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"Is any of what true" ?
I would never take too much notice of anonymous complaints as far too often they have something to hide. In this case "just got back" appears to be a disgruntled client or ex client of Cash Simply.
A lot of what has been said is purely semantics like "Any good payroll provider works well with your factoring company" Of course that is true but what it doesn't say is that bad payroll providers don't work well with factoring companies or anyone else for that matter and there are a number of bad payroll companies out there judging by the complaints that I receive.
"Any self respecting factoring company with credentials will supply the funds in 24 hours" is another quote that isn't necessarily as straightforward as it seems as although most factoring companies will supply funds within 24 hours it won't be cleared funds into your account unless you pay extra.
"I am so annoyed that Tom promoted his 100 percent funding..... Which is not true" If Tom said that his company provided immediate funding of 100% of the invoice value then one may have cause for complaint but he doesn't as it's funding of the payroll that he provides.
The other questions should be posed to Tom himself and do bear in mind that every finance company will have disgruntled customers but ask him to give you a couple of references of existing clients that you can speak to as that should help you make your mind up.
I would like to add that whilst I am a factoring broker I have no tie up with Cash Simply at all but just don't like seeing someone sticking the boot in whilst hiding behind a cloak of anonymity
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Friday, 23rd Nov 2007 18:20 |
| Views: | 305 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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Hi Ha,
I am sure it is true that "Just got back" (JGB) "thinks" something is rubbish. However that doesn't necessarily mean what he thinks is true is in fact so and it might be useful to explore the commments in order.
We rescued an Employment Business where funds were restricted in significant part because the payroll company (which claims to be the largest in the industry) failed to upload adequate details for the Factor (the commercial arm of a high street bank).
It is true to say that "Any self respecting factoring company with credentials will supply the funds in 24 hours".
The question is "Within 24 hrs of what?" The answer is "Within 24 hrs of acceptable uploaded invoice detail and if you pay extra for payment by CHAPS".
It is true that invoice detail needs to be created from time sheet information. I am sure that there are some out there that achieve it but I must confess that I have yet to come across any Employment Business that can guarantee to get all its Temps' time sheets in by Monday 9.00am.
However, if that can be done by 9.00 am then I would still recommend back to back proceesing of payroll and invoice generation - whoever does it (See earlier notes). Then after the invoice data is uploaded adequately and before the factoring company's CHAPS deadline (not usually later than 3.30pm) with the payment a CHAPS charge for transmission, the money could be in your account as suggested.
Next points.
Firstly, Cash Simply does not use factoring. Please see earlier entry. Secondly, the anonymous JGB, through lack of attention or intent, completely fails to understand the back to back out of sync risk. Again I refer to the above and copy here for above " What I WAS referring to is back to back payroll and invoice generation, which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SOURCES OF FINANCE and everything to do with good back office administration".
Secondly, As any one familiar with all it offers will know, Cash Simply provides excellent value for money for all of the services it provides, which of course are far more than simply payroll and invoice funding (albeit that it provides a higher level of invoice funding than any factoring company). It now even offers 4 weeks free overdraft during any tax year to all of its Customers so that times of high labour costs and low invoice values ( such as Holiday Pay payments - things that happen in recruitment around Christmas and Wakes weeks in the North West etc) Temps are always paid.
I use the numbered points used by JGB to respond.
1Temps do get paid from Keen Thinkings bank account but the agency's logo is on every pay slip. Cash Simply's telephone number is also on it for queries so that all first line Temp queries (e.g. Is my CSA deduction correct ? etc ) are dealt with by Cash Simply and the agency owner is free from this burden.
2a I am not sure how "your payroll provide will collect time sheets for yourself" works. Perhaps some one could ask JGB to explain. However, this it seems to me is a receipe for being out of control of your business. If you don't see the time sheets how do you know what work has been done and how does the payroll company get them to you by 9.00am for invoice generation. See "9.00am" notes above.
2b It is absolutely true that Cash Simply processes the data of the agencies it works for. It is their data and their instruction. JGB sees this as expensive. Cash Simply Customers do not.
3 There are no borrowing costs. There is a simple fee for all of the Cash Simply service and the Customer gets all of their money.
4. It is 100% of invoice value that is truely funded. The net weekly and the balance at VAT quarter end - and this is the subtle and important point which makes the 100% funding true - it is paid whether the debt is collected or not. Factoring will only pay balances when the debt is collected.
5 Sadly the point about "out of sync" is missed again. See "Next points" above.
6 As JGB clearly gets the wrong end of the stick (see 5) and is anonymous, I guess you can accept or reject his advice based on what you know about himup his ability to read the information before him . Cash Simply has several multi£million turn over Customers delighted with the service and its value for money, many of whom have come from unfortunate experiences with factors and factoring and associated payroll companies. In fact one who thought the grass was greener and left on good terms, has just returned because he found that it wasn't. You are also anonymous but if you are real and would like to speak to one or more of those companies, please send your details to me for I know they will be pleased to tell you directly of their experiences with the product. Tom.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | NSS |
| Date: | Wednesday, 28th Nov 2007 10:46 |
| Views: | 291 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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Hi,
I know someone who has just set up with HSBC with whom she does all her business banking. I'm not sure how this comares to others but she has been extremely impressed.
She is charged approx £4k off a £110k turnover.
Good luck
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | Mike Sonus |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Dec 2007 16:22 |
| Views: | 272 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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I would avoid RBS. We had a non recourse factoring arrangement for many years but in the end massive turnover of their staff, neglect by our Account Manager(s), credit limits ebbing and flowing randomly, mistakes on the ledger forced us into arms of Barclays. Barclays were late into the whole factoring / ID arena but were keen to catch up. They have a non-recourse Invoice Discounting product which is, I believe, fairly unique, they remain cheap and are pretty good all round. Being as big as they are also means they've been comfortable with our foreign (Euro & USD) ledgers and accounts too. Let me know if you'd like an introduction.
Mike |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: factoring |
| Author: | factoring solutions |
| Date: | Friday, 14th Dec 2007 08:07 |
| Views: | 263 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=38239 |
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>>>>>>Barclays were late into the whole factoring / ID arena but were keen to catch up<<<<<<
All of the clearing banks entered into the factoring arena at about the same time in the early sixties and Barclays were no later than anyone else although they weren't particularly successful.
I would guess that their ID offering is as good / bad as that of any of the other clearing bank subsidiaries but for anyone looking for full service factoring I would suggest that they run through the credit control procedures very carefully as some, if not all of the credit control is handled from India
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