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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Nov 2009 11:40 |
| Views: | 70 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Well Hello Dolly, ,
I suggest that you contact the client and let them know you have suitable candidates "coming out of your ears" so if they are not successful with the agency to which they have granted exclusivity, they give you a call.
Hope that works for you. Tom. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | dollypantry |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Nov 2009 12:01 |
| Views: | 66 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Thanks Tim - only problem is, client is at outset of hiring and very clear about not accepting CVs. Also - this seems really unfair to a candidate who has been with us a long time and who is out of work at the moment - not very good for relationship...
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | liz |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Nov 2009 14:12 |
| Views: | 67 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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See what you mean about wanting to help people, which is admirable, but you're not a charity!
You don't just do it for the love of finding people work or you'd be working for the job centre.
It's not your responsibility to give people contact names. Tell them to get on the phone and find out themselves. Perhaps if they were being more proactive they'd have found work by now.
Tom's suggestion is spot on. They might not take CV's yet, but nothing to stop you telling them you have suitable candidates.
I'd forget about this client other than doing that and try and find work for the candidates you want to help with another client. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Cat Gamble |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Nov 2009 14:58 |
| Views: | 61 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Hi,
Personally I'd make contact with the other agy and see if they'd be interested in doing a split fee. I wouldn't give the candidates the contact names of people within the buisiness and equally if the other agency wouldn't do a split - I'd let the candidate know the name of the agency and let the candidates know that this other agency has sole agency for this job.... I don't think its right or ethical to withhold that information.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | dollypantry |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Nov 2009 16:09 |
| Views: | 60 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Thanks to all - good to see it from other points of view. The agency concerned is a big one - I know they won't enter into split fee arrangements.
Cat - I'm leaning towards pointing them to the other agency but... all our time and money invested in generating this candidate - it sticks in the throat! The other agency will get the fee and the endorsement/confirmation that they come up with the goods. Maybe I'll take a bit of everyone's advice and get the candidate to do some google searches and if the other agency has done it's job, they'll find them.
Any other viewpoints always welcome... this market has thrown up some very interesting new challenges.. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Nov 2009 18:12 |
| Views: | 61 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Hello Dolly,
Tough love coming your way.
I am so glad you don't encounter the fraudsters I have to deal with on a frequent basis.
Also, I hate how the CAP policies of the EU cause many in Africa to starve.
I can't do very much about either so I do the very best I can and get on with life.
I see your thoughts are that despite the fact that the agency that outmanouvered you with their PSL sale and caused you to lose business won't even consider a split fee (alls fair in love war and business), you still want to make life easy for them because you feel sorry for some candidates you can't place without giving your data away for free to your competitors.
You seem too nice to be in business. Perhaps not enough people have beaten you at sales or cheated you yet. Given time it will happen.
If you are ever unable to get a job, then when you are in the dole queue and the agency that squeezed you out of your business; that you passed all your candidates to for free; doesn't offer you a job, or even reply to your application; just remember the nice warm feeling it gave you helping them earn at your expense after they had outmanouvered you with their PSL
My best advice. Either 1 Focus on what is good for your business. Learn to be better at winning business than your competitors and go place those candidates on your data base elsewhere; or 2 Get out of business and take up social work.
If giving those candidates away means they might come back to you for future placements, then that could be a good business decision. However, you need to work out whether you are in recruitment or social work. When you have made up your mind which one it is, do it well but don't try to do both. You will fail. Tom.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Liz |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Nov 2009 18:25 |
| Views: | 61 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Sorry but I've never heard such poor business and recruitment advice in my life! Let candidates know the name of the other agency?! Are you serious? So basically line the pocket of the other agency?
You're right dolly that it would stick in your throat.
How about thinking 'didn't get the business this time round, but will stay in touch with the client and let them know details about candidates.'
You don't need to send a CV. You can send an email through saying 'candidate x, with such and such skills just registered and enquired about your business.' Do it enough and keep in touch, making sure that you know when an agree reviewment is coming up.
This agency will fall down at some point. No agency is perfect. There will be a time when they can't find a suitable candidate and you will be in the client's mind.
YOU have good candidates, they are not going to the other agency, so they other agency might struggle to fill the roles. That puts you in a good position. Give candidates the other agency's details and you lose your good position.
You don't have this clients business, so find other business. There's not just one company out there. Wait on the sidelines and you might pick something up that enables you to demonstrate how good you are!
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Matthew |
| Date: | Monday, 23rd Nov 2009 18:48 |
| Views: | 56 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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We all know recruitment is a ruthless game and as Liz said you are not a charity, so why act like one...
Just because the agency is a big one doesnt mean they wont split a fee, I would say you need to deal at a higher level than a consultant, a consultant will always say no as it affects their commission.
I would still approach the company and the other agency, but I would certainly not give any advice away to appraoch the agency or the company... Sounds harsh, but your here to make money.
Dont take this the wrong way, but it sounds like your being a little soft... Remember in the current market only the fitest will survive...
Good luck and hope you find a way of making some cash out of this one...
Mines a bottle of Dom Pérignon if you do.... :)
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | cat gamble |
| Date: | Wednesday, 25th Nov 2009 11:16 |
| Views: | 53 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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sorry liz and tom but i think your petty approach is what gives agencies their ruthless reputation.
i would approach the other agency, angle for a split fee, and at the same time go all out to find employment for the candidate at other places of work...
but in my view, if you have nothing for your candidate (todays candidates are tomorrows clients etc etc) then if the relationship is good i would let them know whose got the business... if you manage this right and keep in touch with the candidate you could gain some valuable information as to the client/competition/vacancy/service levels and why you don't have the psl...
and if you don't point them in the right direction - when they do find out and appraoch the other agency you can be sure your reputation will be mud with whomever they talk to when they explain they would have been in touch sooner but you refused to let them know who was dealing with the vacancy.
think of the bigger picture. and tom, i am definitley in recruitment not social work i obviously operate my desk differently to you but there is more than one way to skin a cat. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Wednesday, 25th Nov 2009 13:25 |
| Views: | 51 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Hi Cat,
A bit lost. You write:-
i would approach the other agency, angle for a split fee, (SEE EARLY IN POST THAT HAD BEEN TURNED DOWN) and at the same time go all out to find employment for the candidate at other places of work... I wrote "Learn to be better at winning business than your competitors and go place those candidates"
but in my view, if you have nothing for your candidate (todays candidates are tomorrows clients etc etc) then if the relationship is good i would let them know whose got the business... if you manage this right and keep in touch with the candidate you could gain some valuable information as to the client/competition/vacancy/service levels and why you don't have the psl...
and if you don't point them in the right direction - when they do find out and appraoch the other agency you can be sure your reputation will be mud with whomever they talk to when they explain they would have been in touch sooner but you refused to let them know who was dealing with the vacancy. I wrote - "If giving those candidates away means they might come back to you for future placements, then that could be a good business decision".
think of the bigger picture. (PLEASE SEE SENTENCE ABOVE) and tom, i am definitley in recruitment not social work i obviously operate my desk differently to you but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Cat, am I being skinned for agreeing with you on those points? Tom. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Liz |
| Date: | Thursday, 26th Nov 2009 09:46 |
| Views: | 52 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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I don't think being good in business is petty or ruthless Cat, but I do think you haven't read through properly as Tom mentioned.
I'm not a big fan of split fees anyway, you potentially lose control of either the candidate or the client and to me, control is the most important thing.
You say if you have nothing for the candidate let them know whose got the business. I think that demonstrate that you're not proactive in your sales, which is what gives agencies a bad name. If you haven't got anything, get something!
We don't sit around waiting for jobs to come in, we proactively market each candidate who comes in. Besides is this other agency not advertising their roles? Surely the candidates can apply for them. You would be better off working in the job centre than an agency.
There are plenty of ways to foster good candidates relations without lining another agencies pocket. If you don't believe me have a look at my website. I don't know many agencies who have happier candidates than mine! |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Dolly Pantry |
| Date: | Friday, 27th Nov 2009 12:56 |
| Views: | 59 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Thanks to those who have offered constructive comments. I find it disappointing to read that some people really believe that a considerate approach and business success are mutually exclusive. Have you been overdosing on 'The Apprentice'?!
As top salesperson in 2 organisations for 10 years, I know that successful selling of services is based on a long-termist approach not 'sell and forget'. Don't want to get into a philosophical debate but check out the balance sheets of those banks which have been successful in the last year (and there are some) and you'll see that they embraced a very different culture to the big high street ones.
Just so you know the end of the story - we advised the candidate to keep an eye on the relevent media where the role would be probably be advertised.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | liz |
| Date: | Friday, 27th Nov 2009 13:23 |
| Views: | 52 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Dolly - I think you're misinterpreting good business sense with what you call 'sell and forget.'
My candidates and clients are often one and the same and I work in their best interests. However, there are ways to do that without helping out another agency!
For example, if I knew of a company who would never use an agency and found out that they were recruiting, I'd contact my candidate and advise them to approach the client. I've done this several times, the candidate appreciates it and generally then approaches me for future roles.
This is entirely different to providing candidates with another agencies' contact details and saying that they deal with XYZ client, call them.
Presumably you're not registering complete morons? I know that we try not to. I can guarantee that if one of my candidates wanted to work for a specific company, after telling me which one, if I couldn't help they'd call the company directly.
In fact, in your situaton aside from doing what I'd previously suggested I would suggest that the candidates do make contact directly with the business if they really want to work for them. However, I'd prefer to talk to them about the benefits of working for one of my clients.
I'd still try and retain an element of control even then though. For every candidate that contact me and mentioned working for the company I'd suggest calling the company directly and ask them to mention that I'd put them onto them. Then I'd email the client saying 'you can expect to hear from ____ within the next couple of days. They are interested in working for you.'
If the client then send their details directly the agency more fool them. They might think it worthwhile initially so as not to have to deal with the candidate directly, but after receiving 10+ candidates they'll realise how much money they will save.
I'd rather lose the money to a candidate going directly than to an agency. Go down this route and the client will see you have good candidates and will see that you've saved them money by recommending they contact direct. If they're then in a situation where they have no candidates or they are reviewing their PSL, perhaps they'll be more inclined to use you.
Please don't assume that just because people come up with suggestions for not lining another agencies pockets that they aren't looking at the bigger picture of long term relationship building. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Rock and a hard place - help! |
| Author: | Dolly Pantry |
| Date: | Friday, 27th Nov 2009 13:50 |
| Views: | 49 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=196633 |
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Liz - my response was directed at respondents who who provided unhelpful comments rather than constructive ideas. I think your suggestion of putting the candidate in touch with the client and ensuring that they advise that it was on our recommendation/plus email to client etc. is brilliant and what the forum's about. Someone coming at it from another angle really helps. Thanks
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