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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | Luke Collier |
| Date: | Wednesday, 21st Oct 2009 17:31 |
| Views: | 45 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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Hi Liz
I am certain you are absolutely fine with this. Many businesses USPs are local work for local people.....look at fish4jobs!
This isn't racially motivated is it? i.e him thinking by 'local' you mean British or something silly like that?
Luke |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | liz |
| Date: | Thursday, 22nd Oct 2009 09:46 |
| Views: | 40 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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Thanks guys. No, he's British. He basically has been out of work for a year and is massively deflated. He's looking after 2 family members who are ill and he's constantly rejected for jobs.
He's an unusual character whose name I remember going back years - has a bit of a reputation with agencies. The constant rejection has given him a bit of an attitude problem. I can understand that. He's has altercations with a few agencies.
I've just called him actually to have a chat, as I don't want to end up with emails back and forth ending in arguments. The Consultant in me wanted to tell him where to go, but the business owner in me doesn't really want anyone to go away with a bad impression of us and I do feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for anyone struggling to find work, but he's not helping himself.
Appreciate you both coming back to me and it's good to know that you think the same, as we get loads of candidates who live miles away from us calling who we cannot realistically service from such a long way away.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | Phil |
| Date: | Thursday, 22nd Oct 2009 10:19 |
| Views: | 34 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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This candidate os clearly a pillock! Don't worry - it is isn't illegal to discriminate on the basis of where people live and is arguable as fair a criterion as qualifications.
The candidate is clearly not seeing that discrimination is necessary in the appointment process, be it on experience, qualifications, personality or whatever (after all, it IS discrimination, isn't it?). It is only the usual (sex, race, religion, disability) categories that are illegal grounds of discrimination. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | craig |
| Date: | Thursday, 22nd Oct 2009 10:35 |
| Views: | 47 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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Simliar thing happened to me once, except the candidate was in another country and was only interested in a direct interview with the client.
Dont worry about it, Your local council will also be on your side as they try to get employers to recruit local people. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | Richard |
| Date: | Thursday, 22nd Oct 2009 11:15 |
| Views: | 35 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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Liz,
I have just done some digging on an HR platform we use internally and found the following:
In general terms, there is nothing to prevent you requiring job applicants to meet certain legitimate criteria before they will be considered for a role. It is just as legitimate, although less common, to require an applicant to live within an easily commutable distance for good operational reasons as it is, for example, to require certain qualifications or experience.
The greatest risk for employers when designing job advertisements is that they might be considered discriminatory. Thankfully, gone are the days when ads might have used blatant discriminatory terms such as 'no blacks or women', but employers must still be wary that their ad might give rise to indirect discrimination. For example, an ad requiring an 'energetic and dynamic graduate' might suggest possible age discrimination.
Technically, imposing a geographical restriction could, in certain circumstances, constitute indirect race discrimination. Suppose that the workplace is based in a location in which the population is predominantly white (for example, Chelsea in London) or Asian (let's say Bradford). A requirement that applicants must live within two miles of Chelsea is likely to mean that people from ethnic minorities would be at a particular disadvantage. Conversely, a requirement that applicants must live within two miles of Bradford is likely to mean that white people would be at a particular disadvantage.
However, even if this were the case, provided that the geographical restriction is a "proportionate way of achieving a legitimate aim" - in other words, it is justified because there is a genuine need for staff to live within an easily commutable distance and the geographical restriction is a sensible and effective way of achieving this - the job ad will not break the laws on racial discrimination as set out in the Race Relations Act 1976.
Hopefully this allays any concerns.
Btw the information above is reproduced from an article on XpertHR written by Philip Davies, associate in the European employment group, Covington & Burling. (copyright duties completed!) |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | liz |
| Date: | Thursday, 22nd Oct 2009 12:03 |
| Views: | 38 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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Thanks for taking the time to post that Richard.
I thought that might be the case with regards to location/race etc. We couldn't care less where a candidate lives, but generally our clients want people who live locally and in Lincolnshire that often means within about 10 minutes!
The roads round here are terrible and a lot of candidates end up leaving after a few months because they've either found something close to home or the roads in winter are too dangerous.
Consequently, local employers do not like to take the risk, unless it's for a more senior role. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | ian |
| Date: | Thursday, 22nd Oct 2009 16:31 |
| Views: | 40 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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I have had this augument with jobserve who won't allow you to use the wording "must live locally". I knew I was right but actually rang the rec legal helpline to confirm.
The only issue you can fall foul off is if you recruit in a very non-representative area ethnically speaking - you could be guilty of indirect racial discrimination by only using that local candidate pool.
IU believe the only relevant case law is saints v liverpooll home furnishings which is to do with an ad for a carpet showroom that specified that applicants form a couple of particular postcodes wouild not be accepted and those postcodes were the areas with high ethnic populations |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | liz |
| Date: | Friday, 23rd Oct 2009 09:41 |
| Views: | 35 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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Good to know the REC legal helpline concur. Job centre are just as bad for not letting you write certain things, despite having discriminatory questions on their job area.
We deal with Accountancy and two of our Job titles (not descriptions) are Accounts Senior and Accounts Junior. We have problems whenever we add even if we explain that it has nothing to do with age. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | craig |
| Date: | Friday, 23rd Oct 2009 12:19 |
| Views: | 33 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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I work for various MoD contractors who insist on only employing UK nationals. The amount of times I have had people tell me thats not fair or my adds or discriminating is unmentionable. But at the end of the day rules are rules. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Monday, 26th Oct 2009 06:45 |
| Views: | 40 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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Hi Liz,
May I come at this from a slightly different perspective and suggest a technique I use with lots of "barrack room lawyers" which avoids a lot of wasted time and emotion?
It is based upon the common legal premise that "He who asserts must prove". I call it the "Show me" technique. It also avioids you spending time away from your core business trtying to "disprove a negative".
All you do is say to your accuser/asserter words to the effect, "Please quote the Act (contract), clause and wording that you claim is being contravened (breached) and I shall respond". The accuser/asserter then has to do the work to substantiate their claim/assertion.
I find that gets rid of over 90% of the time wastiers and if some of the remainder do come up with facts, allows you to focus upon the facts presented to you, the interpretation of which you can agree or disagree with and then respond accordingly.
Hope that thinking helps. Tom. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | ian |
| Date: | Monday, 26th Oct 2009 15:55 |
| Views: | 39 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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I tried the show me trick with Jobserve and all I got was - we don't have to it is up to us what rules we place on ads we run and our lawyers have given us guideline saying no ads with "must be local".
A conversation on the subject with an REC legal spokesperson was held within earshot of robbie cowling at an rec IT sector meeting and it still made no difference |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Discrimination |
| Author: | Liz |
| Date: | Monday, 26th Oct 2009 16:20 |
| Views: | 34 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=194584 |
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Hi Tom
Thanks for this - it certainly would save time.
My concern would primarily be though that that person would clearly not be able to and would just go away with a negative view of my business anyway.
It's a pain in the arse dealing with people like this frankly and I'd love to say something entirely different to them. No matter how much of a loon someone is, negative press spreads more quickly than postive.
I won't be able to find him work, but I did help him in the end by getting him to question his attitude. He might now find it easier to find work............unlikely, but you never know ;) |
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