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| Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre" |
| Author: | Rich |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 13:46 |
| Views: | 2,676 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Hi
Bit longwinded but never heard of this before, and i've been in recruitment 14 years....
I received a call today from another agency posing as the "Jobcentre", "Hi, I am calling from the jobcentre, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your vacancies"
"Can you please tell me which client these vacancies are for, do you have contact details for them"
My colleague who initially took the call pointed out he thought it was another agency, as normally they would say "I am ..........calling from West End Job centre, I am calling about your vacancies, reference etc", they never ask you to let tehm know of client names or details, as the name is already entered with postcode on employer direct.
I asked this person, which jobcentre and which reference, he was unable to provide this, I also informed them as the "jobcentre" they should already have the name of the client.
I confronted him and said I know your calling from another agency, by this time my colleague had done 1471 and we now know of their name etc.
He called me a twat and hung up.....
I called the agency and spoke to the director, he informed me that he is not going to stop his staff from getting jobs in, which I dont have a problem with that but posing as the jobcentre and contacting other agencies is unprofessional, let alone desperate and why not call clients direct like the rest of us.
I told him I would inform the REC, he replied with I don't give a $h*t as not a member.
Anyone else heard of this, I know its tough out there but targetting competitors and tricking them in thinking its the jobcentre is pretty low I think. |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre&quo |
| Author: | Thomas |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 13:51 |
| Views: | 224 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Its not that bad an idea........
Im kidding...Its just a lazy and cheating way of getting vacancies.
These folk should be banished altogether and the fact the Director didn't see the wrong in it just shows what kind of organisation it is and highlights the fact that your business runs the way you influence it.
Thomas |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | rich |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 14:15 |
| Views: | 221 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Well if I did that, I would be steeping down to their level.
I am sure the jobcentre wouldn't take to kindly to the idea of it though, and if my staff did that, they would be straight out the door.
Very unprofessional in my opinion... |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre&quo |
| Author: | Dave J |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 15:46 |
| Views: | 238 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Hi,
If you wont name them, at least say what part of the country they are in and what sector they cover....
Cheers
Dave |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Greig |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 16:20 |
| Views: | 196 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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I'd speak to the police. Making telephone calls to represent false information is an offence under the Communications Act. The police are obliged to investigate and the police showing an interest should be enough to convince the agency of the error of their ways.
It may also be fraud by false representation. If someone makes a false representation intending to make a 'gain' then it's fraud. It'd be interesting to see if a commitment from your client would be considered a 'gain' in this sense. A solicitor will be of help and a solicitors letter may also convince them to play more fairly.
I find it amazing that there are people within the industry that would act in such a short sighted way.
Greig
TalentRevolt - UK IT, Legal and Sales specialist split fee recruitment exchange - http://www.talentrevolt.com |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | K |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 16:28 |
| Views: | 230 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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"If you wont name them, at least say what part of the country they are in and what sector they cover.... "
I agree.
Also, can we have he first letter and any "sounds like" in their name.
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | K |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 16:48 |
| Views: | 206 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Nile,
To my first post, agencies should be named and shamed for such practices.
To my second post, Rich has already said he wasn't posting the details - was just a tongue in cheek request.
K |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Nile |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 16:54 |
| Views: | 222 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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K,
I wasn't being serious, it was just a riparte.
Mirth and humour is much needed quality when forced to sit on the bench for unknown amount of time.
Okay, going back to the original post, I am not surprised practices like this exist but there are other subtle forms of it: I get calls from agencies telling me of a great new opportunity located in ... surprise surprise... my home town. This is supposed to ramp up interest and dialogue so that I will disclose who i've been for interview recently, and this sometimes invites positive responses without any qualms.
Only, no such post exists.
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | rich |
| Date: | Tuesday, 11th Aug 2009 17:08 |
| Views: | 206 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Its a Catering agency...
Not sure if the police would really be interested and I would rather focus my time on sales, the professional way ;)
I was surprised the director didn't seem to give a damn about his consultants work ethics but I guess that says enough about the company. |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | craig |
| Date: | Wednesday, 12th Aug 2009 10:43 |
| Views: | 209 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Strange way of getting vacancies, but wouldnt it be simpler to just pose as a potential candidate and then say after that they are not interested in that company.
I have had people try that before |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Stephen O'Donnell |
| Date: | Wednesday, 12th Aug 2009 14:26 |
| Views: | 219 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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A colleague of mine used to call the Job Centre on behalf of a rival agency. She'd claim to have forgotten the agency code number, and then "double-check" they had the correct vacancies on - proceeding to note down them all, including which client they were for. The Job Centre people were happy to help. She would then go on to ask for several of the jobs to be taken off, as they had been filled.
I certainly wouldn't condone this.
I'll personally own up to calling rival agencies, if they were advertising jobs in my sector, posing as a candidate, and getting the vacancy details. Even if they didn't give much away, it was usually enough to narrow down the client. It didn't impinge on the level of service I provided to clients and candidates, and I did dominate that sector in Scotland for a decade. I filled most of these jobs.
I like to call it being competitive and hitting targets. |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Nile |
| Date: | Wednesday, 12th Aug 2009 14:49 |
| Views: | 219 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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So Stephen, you can't meet targets the honest way of doing things then?
In my opinion, your post alone speaks volumes about the recruitment industry in general, it's simply a sales shop. No more so in the recruitment business is avarice, greed, subtefuge and rampant capitalism most acute. Never mind, honesty, goodwill and fairness....
N |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Say What?? |
| Date: | Thursday, 13th Aug 2009 01:30 |
| Views: | 229 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Sorry Nile but I can't let your comment go on this. What exactly did you think recruitment was before finding out "it's simply a sales shop"? Looking at some of your other posts i gather you are not a recruitment agent but instead a contractor, so let me explain that recruitment is all about sales! As recruitment professionals we:
Sell our services to companies
Sell our services to applicants
Sell a Job to an applicant
Sell an applicant to a company
and close a sale to make money!
We are not charities and are here to build a successful commercial business. While different people will run their business with different levels of professionalism and integrity, we are all in the business of selling.
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Stephen O'Donnell |
| Date: | Thursday, 13th Aug 2009 13:10 |
| Views: | 220 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Hi Thomas
I haven't recruited directly for a few years now, but I was recruiting in the manufacturing sector, specifically in injection moulded plastics and polymer technology, where there was a bit of a boom in Scotland, in the 1990's.
My point is that in a competitive market, it is a recruiter's duty to have intimate knowledge of their own specialist sector; who is recruiting, scarcity of skills, salary rates etc. In contingency recruitment, where other agencies may be working on the same vacancies, it is also essential to know who your rivals are, and what they are doing, in order to compete with them. I'd make a point of being on speaking terms with rival agencies and recruiters.
All recruiters have a duty of care to all candidates they deal with, and a primary responsibility to clients they work for. I would never condone any action that jeopardised either. That is a line you must never cross. |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | JamesKnight |
| Date: | Thursday, 13th Aug 2009 14:29 |
| Views: | 253 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Actually Stephen I believe that there are more ethical ways of doing business.
I’m appalled to be honest that you think that conducting business in the way you did as a recruiter was something good and others should follow.
Let’s be straight here, what you did was totally unethical and demonstrates serious lack of integrity.
Whilst, the days of a gentlemen’s word being his bond are long gone, what you were doing was just plain sleazy.
If you were as effective as a recruiter in Scotland, you would have known what clients staffing requirements were required, you would not need to phone competitors up pretending to be someone you were not, wasting their time just to extract information to steal accounts from them.
At least I can go to bed at night knowing that my own success is not as a result of cheating or unethical conduct to get where I am know – I’m disgusted.
James
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Sue |
| Date: | Thursday, 13th Aug 2009 14:45 |
| Views: | 208 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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"James"
The extreme nature of your response makes me think you are more likely to have a problem with Stephen than his practices.
Sleazy? I don't condone lying to get vacancies but disgusted and appalling is a bit over the top isn't it.
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | JamesKnight |
| Date: | Thursday, 13th Aug 2009 17:06 |
| Views: | 216 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Sue,
He has admitted to phoning up recruitment agencies hence wasting their time and money, pretending to be someone he is not, taking up a recruiters time that could be spent with genuine jobseekers or something else and doing it in order to steal intellectual information so he can get that recruiters fees.
Sorry, but if that’s not poor business ethics I don’t know what is?
it’s nothing to do with him – it’s this practice I don’t like and I stand by my comments.
What if the entire industry did this?,
James
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Ian McA |
| Date: | Friday, 14th Aug 2009 02:12 |
| Views: | 211 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Why are we all surprised by such activity going on? We all know its goes on - and some worse stuff as well. But just because we don't do it, as we know its going on are we condoning it?
The problem is that with no central body for the recruitment industry - less than half the UK agencies are registered with REC, less than a third of consultants - this and other activity won't be checked or got rif of. In Bristol last year we had the racism in recruitment issue proof thanks to BBCWest, where agencies were happily and illegally taking briefs where they accepted to excluded non-white applicants. That was an illegal activity and REC's response was to "investigate" the REC members: no sign of activity or report back yet!
Greig is right, in that posing as another party is an offence under the Communications Act. If this activity continues, of if you find other agencies find they are subject to the same activity by the same agency, then the only way to stop them is to report them to the police. I wouldn't take to such activity lightly, but a consistent pattern is damaging to all.
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | rich |
| Date: | Friday, 14th Aug 2009 11:06 |
| Views: | 207 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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I agree with James there, very unprofessional way of working...no wonder why the industry gets a bad name. |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Mark Campbell |
| Date: | Friday, 14th Aug 2009 12:10 |
| Views: | 213 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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I understand one person's view of competitiion is another's understanding of unethical practice. It's just a shame that the recruitment industry is such an untrusting environment. I mean we can't give out even towns or cities where jobs are in sometimes as so many recruiters are trying to 'steal' client info.Job specs have to be re-written completely and information on specific machines or equipment sometimes has to be given at the tailend of the recruitment process. we operate in a niche sector so always recruit new candidates so sometimes have to verify suitabiliy for the job before checking IDs, signing contacts etc. I've had agencies posing as clients. candidates etc. It slows the whole process down and frustrates candidates and clients. Consultants have to be continuously monitored so they don't give out important info. I wonder sometimes if the people engaged in this practice are really doing it to get client info or just to slow down their competition because they've got nothing else to do. Why don't they spend their time convincing clients of their service offering instead of trying to undercut other agencies.... or network properly and develop relationships with their competitors. It makes the industry unappealling to new entrants and perpetuates the cycle of bad practice by attracting cowboys and shiny suited wide boys.
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Nile |
| Date: | Friday, 14th Aug 2009 13:18 |
| Views: | 208 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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As long as recruitment bosses seek out "highly skilled salespeople", then the problem will always remain.
It the will of the "get rich quick" mentality or even the "I wanna be financially independant" white collar middle class business ownership mindset that will always want people working for them (see greed, avarice above) that perpetuates this idiom, and not just in recruitment alone, so I am resigned to it.
But, membership of the REC is not compulsory, so why is noted that less than half of agencies are members? |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Friday, 14th Aug 2009 13:35 |
| Views: | 226 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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I've mentioned this to a few fellow members of the IRP (REC's individual membership) and was surprised at the level of apathy regarding such poor and damaging tactics. I've seen far too much of this type of fraudulent behavior during my 15 years in this industry and it's no surprise that recruiters get such a bad name as even those of us who act professionally tend to treat this type of activity with apathy. It's serious fraud in my opinion and we shouldn't tolerate it at all. |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Friday, 14th Aug 2009 14:11 |
| Views: | 223 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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I spend my time traveling between our offices and in recent weeks I am spending more time at clients offices, hence it's difficult to post regularly. I try to look in on this forum as much as possible as I've found it to be really informative in the past. Nice to be back! |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Contradictory posts ? |
| Date: | Wednesday, 19th Aug 2009 10:32 |
| Views: | 211 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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Anyone else read these two posts by the same person ?
From the REC- IRP discussion on this board on 10th August:-
"I've been a Fellow for the past 8 years, I think, and frankly I joined in order to show clients and candidates that I had a depth of experience in the industry, and would work to ethical, and professional standards."
and then from this discussion on 12th August:-
"I'll personally own up to calling rival agencies, if they were advertising jobs in my sector, posing as a candidate, and getting the vacancy details....."
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Nile |
| Date: | Wednesday, 19th Aug 2009 20:34 |
| Views: | 224 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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YES I HAVE, and I know the person in question.
Hypocrisy and double standards are rife amongst some in the industry so why are you surprised?
This seems to be endemic in a sales driven environment in any case... |
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| Re: Dodgy agency posing as the "jobcentre& |
| Author: | Bel |
| Date: | Friday, 21st Aug 2009 18:50 |
| Views: | 196 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Standards and Reputation | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=190486 |
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1.Sell our services to companies
2. Sell our services to applicants
3. Sell a Job to an applicant
4. Sell an applicant to a company
5. and close a sale to make money!
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I can't less this comment pass, because this is very much a topic in my field on flexible working.
I agree with point 1 and 5, but disagree with 2-4.
2. You don't 'sell' services to applicants either, mainly because you don't have a service to sell to them. If that were not the case, they would be customers and would have to pay you for that service. Instead, recruiters alert them of what work is available, as originally briefed by the hirer, and then summarise the work requirement to attract applicants. From these applications you select a certain number of candidates to introduce to hirers. Any 'selling' of candidate services to hirers surely stems from the candidates own experience and background, as stated on their CV, it's not down to recruiter efforts at all. Recruiters select they don't sell. If the hirer won't bite from those you've selected, they won't bite. If they want to see other candidates, you will send them other candidates - so they won't be sold to at all, particularly if briefed by the candidate.
3. Same goes for job.
4. You don't sell applicants to hirers either. You introduce them to hirers and hirers specifically purchase their labour or expertise, which includes your mark up/margin + candidate fee etc to cover your work alert and business running costs + profit. If there was no candidate, there would be no fee for the recruiter either. In the case of contractors that work through a limited company, they sell their own services to hirers, otherwise they wouldn't be running a service based business in the first place.
I know that recruiters are keen to been seen as working on behalf of candidate as well as hirer, but this simply marketing, it's not fact. No matter how much you may or may not appreciate their input in your own business success, just as they may appreciate yours - at least some of the time.
Bel Grant
Writer on Flexible Working and Recruitment
www.twitter.com/BelGrant
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