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| Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Bill Boorman |
| Date: | Saturday, 16th May 2009 17:23 |
| Views: | 935 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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I have always valued the UK Recruiter Forum as probably the leading commentary on the UK market and a great source for information, advice, and a barometer of the current issues facing the market. Like many of you I read the posts with interest and whilst I don't always agree with them I believe it is essential to present alternative views in order to enable the original poster to reach a decision over their original posting.
When posting replies you can either give your own opinion and hope that if your advice or comment is valued it will draw followers to your brand or you can blatantly plug your own product as the solution. Personally I have always favoured the first option and hope my views are useful.
I recenlty read the following reply to a post requesting information on useful training products, books and DVDs.
"I don't visit here often, and have just noted your question.The reason your original research led you to two top US trainers (though Mr Byrne has passed away) is John;
I don't visit here often, and have just noted your question.The reason your original research led you to two top US trainers (though Mr Byrne has passed away) is that the UK market is not really large enough (among professional-level recruitment firms) to develop optimally-skilled and experienced trainers.The US market is simply much larger,more competitive and more sophisticated, thus resulting in far better quality .
In any case, beyond the excellent DVD series you originally referenced, you should go to AmazonUS, and review two highly effective books, one the 2008 edtion of Breakthrough, the other by he and noted US trainer Larry Nobles.
There should be sufficient information there to enable you to come to a conclusion.The material is highly appropriate to a UK market."
Being a UK trainer and Managment Consultant I was somewhat put out by these comments particularly given the reference to the recruitment firms in the UK. The comment was posted by Ron Tarver. I wanted to discuss this view more openly with Mr Tarver but was unable to trace him. I contacted some American colleagues to try to organise this and was directed to the folowing post on a similar US forum.
"Also folks, if you do a little googling and try to find out some details about who “Ron Tarver” is….you, as so many of my students have, will determine that Ron is not Ron. There is no Ron Tarver. It is alas, an alias for Steve Finkle himself, who has so very simlar themes running through his posts on ere.net."
This is taken from the renowned Fordyce Report in the States. Given that Mr Tarver was recommending Steve Finkel videos and books it seems something of a coincidence.
If we are to retain both the integrity and usefulness of the forum I would propose that this practice is discouraged and that all contributors post under their own identity. I would welcome your views
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 10:48 |
| Views: | 53 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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I totally agree Bill.
I happen to think that the 3rd party recruitment sector has very little integrity anyway ...and this is reflected on this forum. There are notable exceptions like yourself, Liz, Ruffski and one or two others, but I think that Louise believes that if she set this forum up so people had to post using their real names, the forum would die.
If that is the case, that tells you all you need to know about recruitment agency integrity generally. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 14:01 |
| Views: | 54 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Hi Bill,
Whilst it might not look like my true identity, my Ruffski title is what I've been known as for most of my life and I always include my private email address showing my full name (Craig Ruff) The Ruffski title is used on all online activity bar my linked-in account.
I feel it's important that I'm traceable for other readers of this forum and that I can be made aware of new responses to the threads I follow, hence my email address is always present.
Whilst I agree broadly with your comments, I do feel that there are some circumstances where anonymity is important, particularly where a recruiter has become disillusioned by there current employers or are looking to set up on their own (Perhaps they are in the idea stages) who wish to ask pertinent questions or seek advice on this site. It'd be a great shame if UK Recruiter was to take a no anonymous postings stance as many such individuals may possibly be exposed to their current employer finding out that they see their future elsewhere, which could lead to them having to accelerate their business start up or job seeking activities, thus causing them potential harm.
This said, I too get frustrated by the volume and tone of many anonymous postings which are normally not helpful or adding anything of value to the discussions here.
Hope this raises some additional points for the discussion.
Best regards,
Ruffski (Craig Ruff) |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | liz |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 16:32 |
| Views: | 51 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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I find I am coming to the forum less and less because of the childish posts that are set up that often target specific individuals (we all know which ones I mean).
Even if you don't agree with someone they still have a point of view and can provide healthy debate/insight into other things.
Mitch for example has given up time to help me work towards getting retained business, but I don't agree with everything he says! The forum seems awash with comments that provide little to no use to anyone and I think making sure that people have to identify themselves would create more accountability.
I see what you're saying Craig, but perhaps there would be a way around it? If everyone had to register and login, but wanted to post something confidential then maybe they could email Louise to post the query on their behalf? Just an idea.
It does get boring when 50% of threads turn into attacks against people. I think you can debate quite intensely without making it personal or taking things personally.
Having said all of that, you do occasionally get really hilarious posts like the Monster one, which always brighten up my day :) |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 16:57 |
| Views: | 55 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Liz,
A great piece of thinking regarding submitting confidential postings via Louise. Maybe UK Recruiter could then have a full registration / login process with a clearly marked button for confidential postings, which could be moderated to ensure the personally abusive and downright pathetic postings are filtered out. This is exactly how forums should work;
1) Bill gives his opinion
2) Mitch agrees broadly
3) Whilst I agree, I point out a potential issue
4) You still agree but challenge the issue I raise and make a suggestion
5) I agree with your suggestion and propose a way forward
Let's just hope that step 6 sees Louise or someone at UK Recruiter picking up on this thread and introducing a possible fix for the problem. It's brilliant at what can be achieved through people sharing ideas, experiences and opinions!
Thanks
Craig
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Tom Atkinson |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 17:47 |
| Views: | 66 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Hi All, Some good stuff here.
The general rule must be to disclose who you are. The only exceptions I would anticipate as acceptable are those where an indivuidual seeks advice but to disclose who they are could jeopadise their employment position or cause embarrasment etc.
e.g.
"I am looking to break out on my own and want some advice about my restrictive covenant before I do with out my employer being able to trace this post back to me".
or
"I ought to know this but I have forgotten how to calculate Holiday Pay and I don't want to let my boss know. Can anyone help?"
I think Louise already deals with personal attacks. Tom. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Jan Muir |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 18:04 |
| Views: | 59 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Hi all
I agree with these comments. And having been a forum user for a number of years it's a real pity when some of the really good contributors decide enough's enough. I remember Claire who was an excellent forum contributor who opted to stay away because of the childish comments and insults at other forum posters.
Jan |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Mike |
| Date: | Tuesday, 19th May 2009 14:03 |
| Views: | 52 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Hi all,
You have, as always, raised some valid points here. We at UK Recruiter will evaluate this points on their individual merit and make any changes we can to improve the site for users. A couple of immediate answers for you however: We are one of the most popular recruiter discussion forums currently on the web and one of the reasons for this is that we don’t make people go through a long registration process to join the discussion board. Some of our competitors do this and as such have really poor traffic and discussions in progress. The downside of this open registration is that of course we will occasionally attract the "idiot surfer."
We can see the benefit of having a more "exclusive" or confidential forum gathering and we will look into how we might run this. However the general idea of this forum is to keep it open to everyone in the recruitment world and of course their opinion. Please appreciate that some of you will always better informed on a subject and perhaps more opinionated than others but every one and their opinion should be welcomed regardless of whether someone thinks they are adding value to the thread or not.
We already moderate the forum stringently of course and will step up our policing and remove any abusive posts as quickly as possible. The nature of the industry suggests that emotions run high on occasion but we encourage you all to restrain from personal abusive attacks and we will remove anyone acting in this way. At the same time perhaps everyone should look at their threads before posting and ask themselves if it might be seen as potential bait or misread as an attack.
Finally this and any further feedback and suggestions are welcome and encouraged. Please, if you have any further ideas on how to improve the forum do email myself or Louise at contact2@ukrecruiter.co.uk
Thanks
Mike
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Bill Boorman (Really!!!) |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 01:07 |
| Views: | 62 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Thanks for your comments,
I have no issue with negative comments or pseudonyms provided they are used consistently. my real issue here is somone pretending to be somone else in order to attack their competitors and promote and recomend themselves. Mitch, it would be like you pretending to be called Brian and stating everyone else is wrong and the only opinion we should listen to is Mitch. I have no problem with you saying that about yourself as Mitch, i can form my own opinion if you are right. This is the type of dishonest promotion i would like to see banned from this and other forums where it is proven.
Google Finkel & Tarver and you can draw your own conclusions! |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Louise Triance |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 11:09 |
| Views: | 53 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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As a result of suggestions on this thread and general content in the forum we are taking the following approach.
a) as Mike posted yesterday we are looking at ways to change the registration of the forum.
b) we will be cracking down hard on unduly negative, derogatory and unconstructive posts. I do take responsibility for having let standards slip in this area. However, we intent to rectify that from today.
Regards
Louise |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Louise Triance |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 11:25 |
| Views: | 56 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Mitch
No, unless it's worded in a derogatory manner or offers no constructive content.
By the way (and this is a general comment - not just to Mitch) posts on this forum are regularly moderated at present; and have been right from when it was first setup.
Regards
Louise |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 11:30 |
| Views: | 52 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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That is open to massively different ranges of interpretation isn't it?
So I (and possibly others) can better understand what it is that constitutes a "derogatory manner or offers no constructive content" could you tell me what was wrong with this comment I made to Mike which was subsequently deleted....?
Hi Mike
That was a of of words to just basically say that this forum is the best recruitment forum out there. If that's true, the others must be dire because the traffic here is really slow by normal forum standards.
Speaking as someone who probably gets the most personal attacks, I have to say that I don't mind the abuse ...I would just like the people who dish it out to have the balls to own what they say by posting it under their real name.
Once you start deleting threads/comments then that normally spells the end of a forum. People have to be able to be tracked by a valid registration process. There is no other alternative in my opinion. Doing that though will take some courage of conviction and some marketing to get a decent community going of transparent recruiters who can all create healthy debates, arguments and maybe even commercial alliances.
You're obviously not going to do that, so all this place will ever be is
stagnant pool of about 20 or so occasional posters and about another 20 or so other infrequent spammers all regurgitating the same old bullsh*t about how they are planning on starting up on their own after having about 6 months agency experience or moaning about how a candidate/client has ripped them off and doesn't understand how difficult it is pushing CVs around electronically for a living. Trouble is, there's only so many times someone can watch that movie before getting really bored.
Thanks for posting. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Louise Triance |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 11:43 |
| Views: | 56 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Mitch
As we've already discussed, offline, this post wasn't deleted.
I do agree with your comment that moderation ".. open to massively different ranges of interpretation isn't it? "
Sadly, of course, this is the case and the challenge any forum moderator faces. All we can do is attempt to be fair and consistent. So far we've had no major issues in terms of moderation and long may it continue (with perhaps the occasional blip!!)
Regards
Louise |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 11:48 |
| Views: | 51 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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It wasn't deleted? Are you sure?
I ask only because when I posted it yesterday I saw it appear on the thread ...then today it wasn't there. Maybe Mike did it?
If you forced everyone to register, you wouldn't have to worry about moderating the forum because everyone's professional integrity would ensure that it would moderate itself.
And let's be honest here Louise, it isn't exactly busy here is it? if you took away the contributions from Tom, Liz, Ruffski, myself and 2 or 3 others, the place would be like a morgue.
BTW ...I am just trying to help, you know that, right?
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | David |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 13:34 |
| Views: | 52 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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I'm sorry Mitch but I disagree - I am on this forum daily and the reason I do not post anything is because of people like you. I tend to stick to Linkedin as I get a much better professional response. I think that if contributors such as yourself were removed then more people would be more inclined to contribute without feeling the wrath of Mitch! You seem to know everything about nothing and your contributions are nothing but negative!
And begin the wrath.........................! |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Luke Collier |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 13:53 |
| Views: | 52 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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I agree with David.
I read this forum on a daily basis and have made some good contacts on it.
We have many online communities at the ICAEW and we stand by the general rule of
1 - 9 - 90
For every 100 users
1 Posting regularly
9 Post occasionally
90 Never post.
Our figures certainly suggest this is true.
Interestingly we have a mixture of online communities that allow anoynomous posts and those that don't. Those that do allow anoyomous posts have more activity. Whether they are as useful I am not sure!
it isn't necessarily the posting that holds people back, it is the process of registering! Strange but true!
Luke
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | MIke |
| Date: | Thursday, 21st May 2009 11:40 |
| Views: | 54 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Hi Mitch,
Apologies for not responding earlier but I was out all day with clients and wanted to confirm I do exist!
I am not going to get into a detailed discussion with you on this but felt I should respond to your comments.
Your post wasn’t deleted by me and I think Louise has answered all the other issues you raised. The post was not designed to promote the forum but purely suggest we were listening to the ideas and requests of the forum members and taking steps to change things that will benefit everyone. So your comments around this being a morgue and dire etc etc are again taken on board. Any way, as I mentioned, detailed registration does not work with our competitor sites and therefore we reserve the right to manage it the way that will be best for most members and not just one. We are in discussion on how we can improve things and if you want to help then please do offer some constructive suggestions rather than negative comments. At the end of the day Mitch you choose to make yourself heard here for a reason. Perhaps the way you comment occasionally on things are exactly what might be putting people off from joining in or acting as bait for derogatory responses. I’m not sure why you are attending as much as you are if you feel this way about the site? We all have a choice at the end of the day.
I offer you the opportunity to discuss this with me face to face perhaps at the networking event or of course you can contact us direct.
All the best.
Mike
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Integrity in forums |
| Author: | Dan |
| Date: | Thursday, 21st May 2009 20:24 |
| Views: | 57 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184575 |
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Hi Mike,
Good post mate. I have also (like Mitch) had posts disappear but im sure its just an internet thing or maybe the post wasn't deemed fit, either way im not going to cry about it. But i did want to say maybe Mitch had a point in some areas, im not defending him anyway as to be honest i dont agree with a huge amount he has to say but he does also come up with some sound advice so he's a valuable member here regardless of what some might say.
That aside i think the ideas of posting things to Louise and them being vetted arent needed, im sure she has enough on her plate without reading other peoples idle chat and deciding if its fit or not. I think the forum works ok, not perfectly but well enough for its purpose. There is a forum called 'contractor uk' that have a good bulletin board and maybe the solution is to get an out of the box solution like them? I dont know if this is practical but i think we're just arguing over nothing here , if people want to make stupid comments then just ignore the thread and move on.
Recruitment attracts people with a personality and an opinion so invariably there will be conflict, its actually quite healthy for us all to disagree so long as its done within a framework. For me the forum works ok but could be improved a little, the solution of sending posts to Louise or anyone else to be vetted is just silly in my opinion and unworkable. If people want to post anonymously then fine, as i said before if you dont like it just ignore it and the idiots will soon get bored.
Dan
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