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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Ruffski |
| Date: | Thursday, 14th May 2009 10:50 |
| Views: | 60 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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There is nothing you can do as the candidate has not agreed any terms with you so legally you have no rights whatsoever. This candidate might well be a direct ancestor of the devil from what I've read, so perhaps you could write an account of meeting one of Satan's ancestors and sell the publishing rights for millions...you certainly won't be getting any money from other sources regarding this candidate!
It makes me sick to the stomach when I hear about candidates acting in this way and shows that some people have no respect for others.
Good luck!
Ruffski |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Luke Collier |
| Date: | Thursday, 14th May 2009 11:21 |
| Views: | 49 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Are you sure the client isn't involved in this?
Otherwise I don't see her motivation for going direct. There must be more to it.
I am not a recruitment consultant but surely you have proof that you introduced this candidate? I mean she wouldn't have heard of the opportunity, adjusted her CV, etc etc unless you had done the work.
Surely even though you didn't technically send the CV it is only a short jump to say you introduced her.
I think it is crazy to suggest that you don't deserve a fee (presuming she gets the Job, of course) I would suggest she might not if that is an example of how ethically she operates in a business enviroment.
Luke |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Pretty Impartial |
| Date: | Thursday, 14th May 2009 11:34 |
| Views: | 47 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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I think the issue here is that most candidates don't understand the role of the recruiter and how they make a liviing. They most certainly don't understand the sum of money at stake.
Agree with the above about gaining email acceptance that the candidate is happy for you to make the introduction.
If the process was more transparent to candidates, this situation would arise far less often. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mark Jordan |
| Date: | Thursday, 14th May 2009 11:39 |
| Views: | 43 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Dear All
I have consulted the legal team at REC this morning to get advice and guidance.
Did you know that the cnadidate can send their CV directly to any company thta you have made them aware of at ANY TIME!!
So, for example if you contact a candidate and talk to them about a job and they like the sound of it and as a result send you an email giving authorisation (as per the employment regualtions) for you to send their CV to the company you have talked to them about, the candidate can then send their directly immediately after the phone call with you and there is NOTHING you can do about it.
ANY recourse towards the candidate whatsoever by your agency can result in a £5000 fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, if you were a candidate with an intense aversion to recruitment agencies but used agencies to inform you of lucarative positions at companies that matched your career
path you could actually progress through your career without any of the companies paying recruitment fees even if you got the jobs as a result of agent(s) calling you about the role.
Just to let everyone know about this in case you didn't.
As a p.s. Whence you get authorisation from the candidate to send in their CV xyz company you have to tell them what company they are being sent to so they can authoriase their CV being submitetd. We have alaways done this as a matetr of course but if you think about the implications with candidates who intensely dislike agencies it does not bare thinking about!!! |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Thursday, 14th May 2009 13:50 |
| Views: | 53 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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I think it is important to get a little perspective here.
First of all, this kind of wheeler-dealer trading of candidate CVs from online public databases is real low-end stuff and has little to do with professionall recruitment. Semi-skilled opportunism is what it really is.
Ask yourself these questions...
Did you interview and assess the candidate in any meaningful way?
How much were you going to charge the client if this candidate had got hired? 20%? 25%?
Do you think that was a fair price for the effort expended? Seriously.
How many times have you not delivered on a promise made to a candidate in the past?
And most pertinently ...how often in the past have you generated fees from doing pretty much the same thing?
If you're going to operate a recruitment business in this way, you have to accept the hits as well as the wins. That is part of the game when you're operating a low-commitment recruitment service like this.
If you want to stop it happening again, get your clients to retain your exclusively and pay some of the fee in advance. And promise them you will fill the job. It's not difficult.
Good luck.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | liz |
| Date: | Thursday, 14th May 2009 14:12 |
| Views: | 51 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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I think there will always be candidates that don't like agencies and some rightly so, having had bad experiences with them.
However, in meeting the candidate you get a clear idea of their level of committment. I'd personally not talk to a candidate about any of my clients until I had interviewed them and the purpose of getting them in for interview would be to discuss certain roles.
That's the only way to get buy-in and find out what they think of agencies. I always ask candidates about their experiences with agencies. If they've had bad experiences then you can explain to them what you do and why you're different.
This has happened to me once. It was my fault for not getting any committment from the candidate first of all. He was a client of mine, I approached him and shouldn't have told him for which company I was recruiting until I knew his committment level and he'd been for an interview with me. I was being lazy and saw him as a quick shoe-in for the role.
It was annoying, but won't happen again.
At interview stage it's also good to let candidates know that they won't be doing themselves any favours by contacting the client directly because they will see them as attempting to bypass a process that they've agreed upon.
When I've placed joint adverts occasionally candidates have sent their CV directly to my client (despite it saying in the advert that all will be forwarded to me), who has promptly forwarded it onto me.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Jane Newell Brown |
| Date: | Friday, 15th May 2009 08:28 |
| Views: | 49 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Hi Mark
I think this is happening more and more and is a facet of a recessionary time where candidates are desparate for roles and clients are in many cases struggling to justify their existence (internal recruiters at least) by recruiting a high percentage of their roles directly.
One client of mine had a candidate who went for an interview for a role through another agency and was told they would stand a better chance of getting the job if they had applied directly!
I think the points made so far are very valid - this is all about trust and passive candidates. Firstly building trust with your candidate so they have a relationship with you that they value and would not wish to damage and secondly finding candidates for your clients who might not be heavily on the open market and therefore not (and who can blame people out of a job?) desperate to find work at any cost. Therein lies the value in your fee firstly and the key to candidate management secondly.
I guess doing the recruitment you mention (I think nothing wrong with it personally but it just adds more limited value to clients - especially HR/internal recruiters as they can do those bits themselves especially in the current market) means you have to do twice as much of it for a fee to mitigate against the risk of not only candidates behaving that way but your competition getting there faster than you with the candidate's CV anyway - as you can be sure they will have called them too!
No easy answers to this but we as an industry have to keep finding ways of adding value to our clients - that will keep us ahead of the game. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | K |
| Date: | Friday, 15th May 2009 09:22 |
| Views: | 45 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Hi,
To add to Mitch's comments. You mentioned that you'd seen her details on Monster, spoke to her and then sent her details - had you verfied the identity of the candidate before sending her information over details?
K
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Permanent Recruiter |
| Date: | Friday, 15th May 2009 13:06 |
| Views: | 43 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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There are some of us who do have the odd candidate mess us around.
There are some of us, who occasionally have the odd client who does the same.
There are some of us who are bold enough to say that the recession is tough and not pretend that we're thriving as we once were.
This doesn't mean that our client / candidate control or method of recruitment should be questioned and vilified at every turn.
Each recruitment company is different and it appears that some on here are looking to pigeon hole each and every contingency recruiter. For most of us 99% of the time, we don't have issues with clients or candidates but on the odd occasion we do it's of benefit to know that there are others who have experienced similar situations and to ask how they've dealt with it is useful. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mark Jordan |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 10:41 |
| Views: | 47 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Dear All
Thank you for all your comments.
I would like to highlight that my company has achieved ISO 9001 accreditation.Our candidate service levels are extremelu high and is linked to our Quality Management System which defines each prodedure we undertake in the candidate selection process. I believe quite strongly that every candidate we have placed in the last 11 years would say we have exceeded their expextations in terms of the 'recruitment agency' experience.
This is why this episiode has come as a bit of a shock.
I thought I also understood the employment regulations insode out before this event but after revisiting them and talking to the REC I now have the worrying knowledge that any candidate at any time can talk to your client ditrectly at any stage of the engagement process and there is nothing you can do.
So, you might consider yourself the elite of the elite in terms of recruitment agencies and you might have met the candidate three times face to face and taken them out for dinner to get to know them more only to find that they had actually sent their CV directly to your client five munutes before you were scheduled to.
There is NOTHING to protect agencies if this happens so be aware.
Thanks for all you comments.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 10:54 |
| Views: | 42 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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I applaud your attempts at running a professional contingency business Mark ...but selling CVs off online databases is never going to do you in favours in terms of how your business is perceived.
If what you say about the REC is true, then that is even more reason for you to start to educate your clients into paying you a retainer to fill your vacancies.
Nothing worth having ever comes easily.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mark Jordan |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 11:06 |
| Views: | 44 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Mitch
We don't 'sell' Cv's off of on-line databases. We identify candidates who MIGHT be suitable for a role and then qualify them quite intensely before we submit them to the client. We only go to on-line databases if we feel out internal database of candidates in not going to fulfill the cleint criteria for wahtever reason.
Have you never used an on-line database at all?
Mark |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | MItch |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 11:32 |
| Views: | 47 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Mark, you can dress it up as anything you want ...but at the end of the day you are just pulling CVs off places like Monster, having a cosy chat on the phone and trying to sell them on for a big fee. You may think you are "qualifying them intensely" but you probably aren't and it takes more than that to gain candidate commitment.
It is nigh-on impossible to achieve genuine candidate committment if that candidate has not been met face to face and put through something more rigourous than a simple "what kind of job are you looking for' chat, which is what the vast majority of agencies do. I know this because I once put my CV on Monster and the types of calls I got from agencies made me embarrassed to be in the same profession. And I mean literally every single one of the 20 or so calls I received.
The best way to get candidate committment is to own the job you're trying to fill.
I have only used online candidate databases when doing searches either for a client and when I have been retained to fill a job for them. And I always interview them as well. And I mean 'interview' as opposed to meet up for a chat. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | mr negative strikes again |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 12:37 |
| Views: | 46 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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yeah cause your the only person who actually interviews them Mitch after pulling them off a CV Database. Everyone else just has a chat. Mitch, you need to pull your head out from your own backside. Your not the dogs balls - no matter how much you tell yourself you are. Your like the rest of the people on here. You get your CV's from anywhere you can and if its good you'll act proffesionally like the most agencies in qualifying the candidate. Im pretty sure Mark jordan would be interviewing the candidate too if found on a CVD.
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mubin |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 15:24 |
| Views: | 45 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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If you have been in recruitment for 11 years and only had this happen to you once count your blessings.
I have been in the trade for a fraction of the time you have and had this happen to me on a NUMBER of occasions. These are not candidates that I speak with on the phone either, face to face meetings/interviews are had with my candidates dicussing the role/company/culture/mangers. Only to have th candidate leave my office and call/email the employer directly barely giving me enought time to write my interivew notes.
It is all about the candidate, do you have enough trust in them to make sure they wont do that?
I have built good relationships with MOST candidates that I place and find that they are always willing to tell you which other companies that they have been put forward to. I am not the sweetest most charming person in the world, if they are willing to share this information with me they could be doing the same with my information.
Hold your cards close my friends. If a candidate had requested to change a CV 5 minutes after sending it to me I would have been very suspicious and in case liks this I usually try to keep the candidate on the phone and extract as much information as possible as you know something is up.
We are sitting here blaming the candidate, when what has happened is another rec consultat probably rang her spoke to her about a different role with less salary, candidate told rec consultatn about the current offer only to hear "Oh, they only hire directly. Best bet is to get your CV over to the company first, as they refuse to even look at CV's from agencies". I have seen it happen in the past by one of my own very over-zealous consultants who was quickly reprimanded.
/rant. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | kiko |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 16:03 |
| Views: | 43 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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good thread.
if this is the first time its happened then you are quite lucky. i think this happens for a number of reasons and until it happens to you a few times you dont see how to deal with it.
the candidate wants to shaft rec consultants after a bad experience, or thinks they can do just as good a job going for the role themselves. to combat this you need to be flawless from the off when dealing with cands and maintain control. tho this is hard - when i started, i used to never give out the company name unitl after id put someone forward (you have 3 days to this according to the employ regs i think) but this put some people off, and then the market changed and people then got even more guarded and so being a bit more open with the client names helped, particularly with some clients getting bad press i.e. if u put all the effort into putting someone forward, then tell them the name and they freak out cos they cant stand that company, then it could be seen as a waste of time as they insist on pulling out no matter how hard you try to persuade them otherwise.
another reason is lack of understanding of the process. i.e. someone applies directly thinking it wont make a difference. i tell a candidate im going to put them forward, then point out my clients do not like multiple apps so i actually tell them this, and tell them not to apply directly or else i cant help them anymore. if youve been top class with them so far, they'l be impressed and not want to harm their chances of getting what youve sold as the best career move in the world.
then there are the sneaky agencies who perhaps also represent the same client, but have missed the boat tho still interfere and say "ah go on ahead and apply direct cos they dont use agencies", as someone has said above.
maintain candidate control throughout the process.
and if it transpires they have done it deliberately on the sly, i wud have no hesitiation in saying to them "from what i understand you've applied directly, im disappointed given the amount of time and effort we both put into your application that i cant help you anymore - however best wishes with the role, please let me know how it progresses".
losing the rag wont get you far..... |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mark Jordan |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 16:48 |
| Views: | 48 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Kiko
The process is supposed to be as follows:
YOU have to tell the candidate who the client is so that the candidate can send you an authorisation email confirming they want their CV submitted by you. This is the regulation.
As soon as you tell the candidate who the client is they can then contact the client directly themselves (at any time).
If you are at all unsure either contact REC legal team or Mitch.
I don't know everything there is to know about recruitment otherwise I would be on Dragon's Den and based in Monaco.
If in doubt at all with anything in this post,get retained and wait for candidates to contact you through Facebook because you are so popular generally :-)
Thanks
Mark |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | kiko |
| Date: | Monday, 18th May 2009 16:56 |
| Views: | 44 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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the conduct regs state:
"The employment agency or business must also give (orally or otherwise) to the work-seeker, at the same time, information about the hirer which is required by regulation 18 (***e.g. the identity of the company). An employment business that had not already agreed a pay rate must inform the work-seeker of the rate it will pay him to work in that position. If the employment agency or business had not provided any of that information in paper form or by electronic means at the time the work-seeker was proposed to the hirer, the employment agency or business must do so before the end of the third business day following the day on which the information was given to the hirer or work-seeker."
so you have 3 business days after the intial introduction to pass this info to the candidate. you dont need an email from them.
thanks
kiko |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Bel |
| Date: | Tuesday, 19th May 2009 09:59 |
| Views: | 39 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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"It makes me sick to the stomach when I hear about candidates acting in this way and shows that some people have no respect for others. " [Ruffski]
--------
I can understand why recruiters are annoyed at the duplicitous behaviour they get from candidates who go direct after they've been given client contact information.
But spare a thought for candidates too, will you? Recruiters do the same whenever they 'lead gen' by phoning work applicants with bogus work opportunties to extraplotate leads by insisting that they provide pre-offer references just to get client contact details.
It's true that two wrongs don't make a right.
It's essential that recruiters and candidates treat each other with honesty and transparency.
Bel Grant
Writer on Flexible Worker Issues and Recruitment
http://twitter.com/BelGrant
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mark Jordan |
| Date: | Tuesday, 19th May 2009 10:33 |
| Views: | 48 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Kiko
Thanks for the conduct regs statement.
I am much more aware now of the actual parameters involved.
It's all so interesting!!!!
I was thinking last night, I wonder who the most quality driven and quality accredited agency is in the UK and how they could be used as a benchmark?
Do you know of any?
Perhaps I should ask Mitch?!
Cheers
Mark |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | kiko |
| Date: | Tuesday, 19th May 2009 12:45 |
| Views: | 48 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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no problem!
good to hear ur serious about quality etc.
adopt a blue ocean view here. i.e. dont worry about the other agencies. read the laws, then put practices in place to satisfy them at each step in your agency. keep your own house in order. |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mitch |
| Date: | Tuesday, 19th May 2009 14:58 |
| Views: | 49 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Mark, I just want to say I really like your use of sarcasm. Seriously, it made me smile. Thanks.
Do you think that getting your clients to pay you to retain you exclusively on their vacancies is really that big an ask?
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Mark Jordan |
| Date: | Tuesday, 19th May 2009 15:12 |
| Views: | 45 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Mitch
I'm glad you liked the sarcasm.
Getting paid to be retained is something we have never broached.As we are mormally fighting with other PSL agencies
it is not something we have entered into with our clients.
However, this is the first post I have done of this nature and I have learnt a lot already. I like to learn about new techniques and concepts.
I am absolutely intrgued about how you do your business and what sector you work in.
Do you work for yourself or an agency type company?
Perhaps we should have a chat off the forum?
Cheers
Mark |
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| Reply To This Thread |
| Re: Candidate Ethics |
| Author: | Just a Thought |
| Date: | Wednesday, 20th May 2009 14:37 |
| Views: | 46 (excluding Digests and RSS feeds) |
| Category: | Other | | URL: | http://web.ukrecruiter.co.uk/forum/Forum/read.php?i=184316 |
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Just a thought, but perhaps this candidate had personal experience of less than perfect treatment from a recruitment consultant. Perhaps she had lost all faith after having been made promise after promise and never seeing anything materialise other than hot air. It happens. A lot.
We need maturity and professionalism from both sides. |
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